Fritillaria

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F. pudica

I'm very much hoping to get this lovely little plant established 'en masse' somewhere in the garden in the next few years. I'm sure they would do much better away from the confines of their pots!

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deesen's picture

deesen (not verified)

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 9:07am

Very pretty Ron, I could get hooked!

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Tue, 03/19/2013 - 11:35am

I am totally hooked already David,  :rolleyes: ;D

I am hoping that Forum members will be able to advise of their experiences growing it in their gardens, or of their observations of it in nature. It is a widespread species and so surely should show some adaptability?

Gordon Tingley's picture

Gordon Tingley

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 9:29am

I remember coming across Fritillaria pudica growing wild in the hills just north of Summerland BC. You could find it growing alongside Opuntia fragilis. You can see the climate profile of the region here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Summerland,_British_Columbia

There didn't seem to be much competition from other plants, apart from some small grasses. Tree cover in the area was sparse, mainly Ponderosa Pines, and scrubby sagebrush.

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 10:32am

Wonderful information. Thank you so much Gordon,  8)

Although I grow many hundreds of this species, I have never had the pleasure of seeing it in habitat. :(  One day......

Trond Hoy's picture

Trond Hoy

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 10:56am

Seems it could do well in my climate (we lack the high temps above 25C though) but it dislike slugs!

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 3:04pm

Ron, I find F. pudica to be very adaptable and a good grower outdoors in the garden. I've had a small colony of F. pudica outside planted under a Hibiscus syriacus shrub (very late to leaf out, so underplanting with spring bulbs works great), for about 10 years. I grew them from rice grains that took about 5 years to start flowering.  I also scratch in the seed near the parent plants to increase the colony, that is, if I can keep lily beetles at bay to prevent their gnawing right through the stems.  Nothing special about the soil except being our native rocky loamy clay generously amended with some sand.

I have seen this frit in the wild, in the Wenatchee Mountains of Eastern Washington State, at about 5000', in sunny meadows, growing in vernally wet areas where water from snow melt saturated the ground and flowed over the surface, growing with other treats like Olsynium douglasii and Allium douglasii. These areas will become dry and baked in a few weeks time after snow is gone.  When I lived in rainy Seattle Washington area, I grew F. pudica in a layer of nearly pure sand (about 6" deep) over the typical wet clay of that area, and the plants bloomed.

F. pudica in bud:
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=204.msg7889#msg7889

F. pudica in early flower:
http://nargs.org/smf/index.php?topic=1018.msg16228#msg16228
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4972.msg146998#msg146998
http://www.srgc.net/forum/index.php?topic=4972.msg147164#msg147164

Merlin's picture

Merlin (not verified)

Wed, 03/20/2013 - 9:53pm

I grow a number of these plants that come from locally collected seeds. This Frit is extremely common in my area with hundreds and hundreds of them growing in favored spots. In the wild they seem to like rocky soil with some slope with sparse competitors and full sun. As has been said these areas are fairly moist in the early spring while this plant is in active growth but soon becomes extremely dry as the plant dies back for the summer. I have found that even a moderate amount of soil moisture during the summer causes the plants to loose vitality and die out. In the areas where i grow it best there is no supplemental water so it is hot and bone dry from late spring on. it is not unusual to have two flower heads on one plant when it is doing well. If you let is set seed the plant may not flower the following year, from what i have noticed.

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Thu, 03/21/2013 - 8:15am

Thank you so much Mark and Jim for passing on your experiences and observations.

I was considering underplanting and am pleased that you've found it to be a good way to go. I'm also thinking raised loam / sand /grit bed. I'm not sure I can get hot baking conditions consistently here, but I don't allow my pot grown plants to be 'baked' anyway and they seem to do well. I think the key for me will be to keep the bulbs as dry as possible when not in main active growth, which I'm hoping a good leaf canopy will provide. It would also seem advisable for me to do a little 'gardening' in the area so as to keep weedy competition to a minimum.

Hundreds growing together must be an amazing site. Would you say that the plants in these areas were very variable Jim? I am growing plants from a number of different states / areas and find that each area seems fairly consistent, but that there is a lot of variation between areas. Obviously this is based on a small sample and probably from very few plants. Would you both say that this holds true in nature, or not?

Trond Hoy's picture

Trond Hoy

Thu, 03/21/2013 - 1:56pm

Merlin, have you tried them in pots? It is hard to find bone dry spots anyplace here even in summer but in a pot I can move them inside and let the bake too.

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Thu, 03/21/2013 - 3:30pm

In my experience, F. pudica is quite forgiving of summer moisture if the soil is adequately free draining. I also have good luck growing bulbs at the base of late-to-leaf tap-rooted shrubs like Hibiscus syriacus, which surely absorbs moisture agressively when the shrubs swing into full growth and flowering in summer, helping keep moisture levels at bay for the dormant bulbs.

Since we still have nearly a meter of snow out there from our recent back-to-back snowstorms, I did some armchair botanizing on Fritillaria pudica, much variation in this species.

The flowers often fade to orange:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jlcummins_photography/8441142925/

Some flower on very short stems, notice dark color to base of flower
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jlcummins_photography/8561764253/

A colony in flower in British Columbia, these also dark basal markings.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcweber/4576650812/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wcweber/4576023983/in/photostream/

Nice form, chubby bells with orange tint, dark glaucous stems:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/12150532@N04/4415581369/in/photostream/

Often they are bi-flowered:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rooftop65/3379564617/

Habitat with Olsynium douglasii:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rooftop65/3380377392/in/photostream/

Look how deep the bulb is:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0407+0005

I notice that the soil often looks sandy:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0105+2787

And, in a rocky habitat:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fleegle/5850530540/

Here's what I was searching for, F. pudica and Olsynium douglasii together, not a great photo but is is as I remember the two species comingling:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rooftop65/4422843779/

In most forms the foliage is green, here's a silvery leaf form:
http://calphotos.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=0000+0000+0912+1353

This photo shows a light cream yellow form:
http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection/imagelarge...

Photo gallery at Burke Museum of Natural History, Washington State,
more photos of Fritillaria pudica than you can shake a stick at:
http://biology.burke.washington.edu/herbarium/imagecollection.php?Genus=...

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Fri, 03/22/2013 - 3:19am

WOW,  :o. Thanks so much for pulling all of this information together Mark. I had only found a few of these threads previously, and had not come across WTU Herbarium before. What a magnificent resource! I know where my time will be spent today.
It has been reported on numerous occasions in the past that some 'forms' of this species are notoriously difficult to cultivate. Others less so. I am wondering if some resent all but the smallest amount of summer soil moisture, and other forms maybe more tolerant. I was planning to plant up a large number of my pot grown bulbs only. I think now that, while I'll still go with the bulbs, I'll rake plenty of seed in with them. Any that grow will be those that have the 'right genes' for my conditions.
I was very pleased to see from the WTU pages that this species is abundant and of no concern there.

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Fri, 03/22/2013 - 5:39am

Very interesting also to see that sometimes the bulbs lie deep in the ground. The bulbs must seek out where the optimum conditions of moisture and temperature are. I've noticed that in my pots, they form very close to the surface.

Tony Willis's picture

Tony Willis (not verified)

Wed, 03/27/2013 - 4:10am

An unusual frit from Turkey,possibly a natural hybrid between F. crassifolia and F. armena from North of Van

Fritlillaria sp Turkey Tendurek Pass

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Tue, 04/02/2013 - 9:43pm
Tony wrote:

An unusual frit from Turkey,possibly a natural hybrid between F. crassifolia and F. armena from North of Van

Fritlillaria sp Turkey Tendurek Pass

Tony, a really nice "broad shouldered" Frit, but one hard to pin down, maybe a hybrid as you suggest. Looking at the flower, I'm trying to see what hybrid parent could have contributed to those boxy shoulders; F. armena has such a tapered narrow bell shape with an end flare to the tepals; flower shape very different, although dark flower color would make sense; F. crassifolia, particularly Fritillaria crassifolia ssp. kurdica which is found in that part of turkey, does have flowers with a slightly pronounced basal shoulder to the bells. Thus wondering how this one could have such pronounced boxy bells in this plant, although the suggested crassifolia (ssp. kurdica) and armena, make the most sense given what Frit species grow in the area, as discussed below.

One research resource I use is the Turkish Plants Data Service (TÜBİVES):
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php

It has a bunch of ways of using the site, but the one I use most often is to help identify plants, is find the area a plant is collected in Turkey, then search the database for a list of taxa found in the particular province (Vilayets in Turkey), to narrow the possibilities. Tendurek Pass in Turkey, north of Van, is the Vilayet AĞRI.  Based on that, I did a search on both Vilayet AĞRI and Vilayet Van, to get a list of Frit species growing in the general area, here they are, this gives the list of Frit species that might be involved in the suspected cross:

742 taxa has been listed in Vilayet AĞRI
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=210&name=4

Fritillaria michailovskyi  
Fritillaria caucasica  
Fritillaria armena  
Fritillaria assyriaca ssp. assyriaca  

1091 taxa has been listed in Vilayet VAN
http://turkherb.ibu.edu.tr/index.php?sayfa=220

Fritillaria imperialis  
Fritillaria crassifolia ssp. kurdica  
Fritillaria alburyana  
Fritillaria minuta  
Fritillaria minima  
Fritillaria zagrica  
Fritillaria assyriaca ssp. assyriaca

Tony Willis's picture

Tony Willis (not verified)

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 11:33am

Mark sorry for the delayin replying ,I have been away in Crete.

My plant is clearly within the range of crassifolia which is very variable. I have two other plants collected in the quite close proximity and they are crassifolia,they are in bud at the moment and I will show them when they flower. Ron (Longma) who I correspond with has sent me a paper where the opinion is that crassifolia and armena are the same species. I sit in the lumper camp and have no time for the constant splitting based on minute variations but I do find that one hard to believe. It is very close to zagrica but that to my knowledge has not been found there.

This plant has been seen by several people in that area,Janis Ruksans (who suggested the hybrid idea in his book Buried treasures) and Arthur Nichols who has posted a picture of it in the wild on the SRGC site

Cliff Booker's picture

Cliff Booker

Sat, 04/06/2013 - 1:35pm

This magnificent Fritillaria davidii won the Farrer Medal (for the 'Best Exhibit in the Show') at the North Midland Alpine Garden Society Show in Chesterfield, Derbyshire today (6th April 2013) ... exhibited by Brian and Jo Walker.

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Sun, 04/07/2013 - 7:51pm

One of the few frits where the foliage is as attractive, distinctive, and impressive as the flowers. I wonder how this species might do in if grown in the ground. Judging from Google Images, flower color and leaf shape are very variable.

Tony Willis's picture

Tony Willis (not verified)

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 2:22pm

Some in flower today

Fritillaria obliqua
Fritillaria crassifolia collc Hosap Turkey
Fritillaria aurea coll Pinarbasi Turkey

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Wed, 04/10/2013 - 5:41pm

Lovely frit portraits Tony.  Makes me think, one day when I get a greenhouse, I will resort to growing frits in the greenhouse, to enjoy them at close hand and avoid worry about lily beetle (screening required).  Tony, I was curious from my previous post, whether you use the Turkist TUBIVES site with which to look up plant species and possible IDs.

Tony Willis's picture

Tony Willis (not verified)

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 12:55am

Mark

my apologies for not commenting on your post about the Turkish site. Yes I have used it on many occasions and find it  very interesting and helpful.I have been to Turkey about thirty times and whilst I look at all plants (I mean all) that I see on the whole the ones I am particularly interested in ,with the odd exception such as that frit, I am very familiar with.

I also use vol 8 of the Flora of Turkey which I own.

I have an interesting allium I collected there some years ago coming up to flower for the first time. I shall be looking for an identification!!

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Thu, 04/11/2013 - 8:21pm

Wow, 30 times to Turkey!  That's impressive.  Ever since I was in college and subscribed to a MacPhail & Watson seed collecting expedition to Turkey, I've been intrigued with the Turkish flora.  Even moreso when many of the expedition seed did so well for me.  Always wanted to buy the complete Davis Flora of Turkey, but the price was too rich for my budget.

Now I'm eager to see your Turkish Allium flowering for the first time.  Many new species were published since Flora of Turkey was written, but that's when I might resort to the Tubives site to help find an ID.  Keep us posted.

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 4:19am

F. affinis tristulis

Although I grow a large number of these plants, very few have decided to flower this year. I suspect my feeding programme was not sufficient last year.
Found, I believe, only in Marin County, California. (?)

Richard T. Rodich's picture

Richard T. Rodich

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 6:54am

Fritillaria yuminensis is so cool, especially with the cirrose leaves.

Longma wrote:

F. affinis tristulis
Although I grow a large number of these plants, very few have decided to flower this year. I suspect my feeding programme was not sufficient last year.

So will you be marking these "super clones" for further evaluation?

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Thu, 04/10/2014 - 2:24am

[quote=RickR]

So will you be marking these "super clones" for further evaluation?

[/quote]

 

They have grown and flowered just as strongly again this year Rick.

                        

Following an increase in feeding last year, many of the others are also flowering once more.

                        

Tony Willis's picture

Tony Willis (not verified)

Tue, 04/08/2014 - 12:03pm

Ron

wonderful,what colour.

 

A couple more of mine

 

Fritillaria whittalii as identified by Ron

Fritillaria liliacea

and a truly elegant  Fritillaria drenovskyi

  

 

 

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Wed, 04/09/2014 - 6:17am

Beautiful trio Tony. Excellent description of F. drenovskii too,.....  truly elegant.

Here's another that is simple and stylish when seen as a singleton, from Turkey F. elwesii. 

                            

I much prefer it when there are a few together though, cheeky

               

          

 

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Fri, 04/11/2014 - 3:14am

From the Balkan Peninsular, Fritillaria graeca.

                     

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Sat, 04/12/2014 - 4:48am

Fritillaria kurdica

In September 2009 I sowed a few hundred seeds from a couple of plants of F. kurdica. I had pollinated them in controlled conditions and was happy that no 'contamination' had occurred. [ I sowed seed earlier back then than I do now. These days I don't sow anything until November at the earliest. This way I don't have to have seedlings facing the coldest of our winter, usually at least! ]. I was hoping that by doing this I could begin to explore variation within this species. As it is an easy grower my hope was that I would see most through to flowering. 

The first plants have begun to flower this year and so far variation, whilst there, appears minimal. There is some in the size of the plants and the shape of the petals, but its not wide and the patterning and coloration also seems fairly stable. These are the most  'extreme' from 80 plants currently in flower. None appear to be anywhere close to approximating any of the other species within this 'group'. I really thought some would be close especially to F. michailovskyi, but no, not yet at least.

                           

                           

                  

                                                      

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Mon, 04/14/2014 - 3:10am

Two from Turkey.

The very green flowered and glaucous leaved Fritillaria bithynica,

                           

and Fritillaria acmopetala ( grows in other countries in the region also ). The leaves belong to a Freesia, cheeky

                      

One from UK, ( the only one sad ), Fritillaria meleagris

                         

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Sat, 04/19/2014 - 8:35am

From N. California Fritillaria glauca.

                                       

                                        

A few more from 19th April 2014

                                       

Tony Willis's picture

Tony Willis (not verified)

Wed, 04/16/2014 - 1:25pm

Ron

my final two

Fritillaria pontica from Greece

 

Fritillaria biflora 'Martha Roderick' bought from Wisley garden Centre

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Fri, 04/18/2014 - 2:30am

Still a few left to flower here Tony, but most have been covered by posts earlier in this thread. Seed pods forming nicely this year, so still plenty to look forward to. 

From N. California Fritillaria recurva.

                                             

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Tue, 04/22/2014 - 9:04am

Fritillaria affinis. This form has no markings of any kind on the petals, which are a greenish yellow in color.

                                         

Trond Hoy's picture

Trond Hoy

Sun, 04/27/2014 - 2:20pm

I grow lots of Fritillaria meleagris (the slugs do not like that species) but few others. Here is one exception but name forgotten. Had to turn the flower to take a look inside!

 

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Mon, 04/28/2014 - 7:05am

Very nice Trond. I think we can say with some certainty that this one is Fritillaria orientalis. This species is found spread widely over the Caucasus. Is it just the one?

Trond Hoy's picture

Trond Hoy

Mon, 04/28/2014 - 1:18pm

Thanks Ron, I'll try to remember that name!

Think I have two plants - until the slugs find them. . . .

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Mon, 04/28/2014 - 1:25pm

Let's just hope they don't find them palatable Trond, !! It's one that while being an obvious one for European gardens, it isn't widely grown, i.e.. is scarce. Hope you can keep them going. As for the name... no need to remember it now............ its cataloged here for all time!! wink

Trond Hoy's picture

Trond Hoy

Mon, 04/28/2014 - 1:33pm

You know - then I had to remember where I could find that thread!

I have put the name on my pictures now and filed them!

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Sun, 05/11/2014 - 4:50am

The F. koidzumiana seed pod opened today and dispensed 46 most un Fritillaria like seeds. They are round, have an elaiosome and not dry at all. From reports I've read about seed production on other Japanese species, this is is good number, so I'm very happy,smiley. Viability reduces rapidly in short time, so these will be sown today. Growth is expected at the end of the year.

                   

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Mon, 04/15/2013 - 9:08am
RickR wrote:

So will you be marking these "super clones" for further evaluation?

:), All plants have a unique ID number Rick, so I can record their performance.  I'm wary of feeding this 'variety' too much, ( compared to F.affinis affinis which I feed heavily with no ill effects ), as it does seem to prefer 'poorer' soils,and a tougher growing environment, under my conditions. I will, however be feeding more this year than last. I have tried enriching the potting medium previously ( with leaf mould and also various John Innes mixes etc. ) with very adverse effects. So I'm sticking at the moment with a very gritty mix and soluble feeds in the waterings.
I've not had much success establishing the type of soils it uses in the wild. The records and references seem quite confused.

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Fri, 04/19/2013 - 8:35am

A couple more of the Liliorhiza have started to flower. F.glauca and some taller forms of F.recurva.
Seed originally came from Ron Ratko.

Longma's picture

Longma (not verified)

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 11:03am

Another very interesting Japanese Fritillaria sp. ( Fritillaria tokusimensis ) has been added to the wonderful website of Dr. Laurence Hill -

http://www.fritillariaicones.com/

A wonderful resource for all who are interested in Fritillaria.

Mark McDonough's picture

Mark McDonough

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 6:55pm

Catching up here, Cliff, the photo of F. yuminensis instills great plant lust, what a unique beauty.

Ron, those forms of F. affinis tristulis are outstanding, as Rick called them, "super clones", with such broad shouldered blooms and that smokey "bloom" or glaucous dust on the outside with more intense color inside, wow!  Congratulations on such success with F. glauca and F. recurva, I'm totally envious.

Yes, fritillariaicones.com is a most useful site, I was tooling around it earlier this week!

I'm sad to report that F. pudica seems to be dying out, only about half of what was there last year has come up, but on a happier note, F. crassifolia ssp. kurdica sown-in-place seedlings are making small forests, maybe 2-3 years more until bloom:

Fritillaria crassifolia ssp. kurdica seedlings, the parent plant at the top of the image:

Richard T. Rodich's picture

Richard T. Rodich

Sun, 04/21/2013 - 8:48pm

Everyone is showing such gorgeous specimens!

Longma wrote:

the wonderful website of Dr. Laurence Hill -

http://www.fritillariaicones.com/

A wonderful resource for all who are interested in Fritillaria.

I was very impressed with this site when I stumbled upon it years ago.  And it keeps getting better and better!

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