Using herbicides in the garden

James wrote:

A small paintbrush used to carefully apply roundup to the leaves of weeds is helpful.  In a tight spot, like your semps, I would use a razor blade to cut the taproot below the crown.  Generally, I believe prevention is the best medicine.  I put weed fabric down under my mulch and only cut holes in it where I actually plant.  This works well for perennials and shrubs.  The easiest way to weed bulbs is to let them go completely dormant then spray the weeds.  This worked well until I decide I needed something to cover the bare ground.  Snapdragons have seeded into the area where I grow Spring bulbs and now fullfill that need.

James

I do not use plant poisons of any sort in my garden, not environmentally sound... my property is relatively high (~500') and with run-off to other properties. Cutting taproot of dandelion is ineffective, must get majority of taproot out, it comes down to available time.  Regarding snapdragons in the North American flora, I only know of old world Antirrhinum introduced here in the US.
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=ANMA3&mapType=nativity&photoI...

Please see following post for correction.

Hi Mark,  I must disagree with you about the use of herbicides always being "not environmentally sound."  Indeed, they are used to selectively control weeds in environmentally sensitive areas to help preserve them.  Studies have been done on the environmental fate of herbicides.  Many millions of dollars are spent conducting these studies before herbicides can even be sold.  Soil microbes decompose them.  The half life in a variety of soil types have been published.   The label is a legal document that the user is required to follow.  As long as the herbicide is used legally then tests have determined it is safe.

The selective use of herbicides has usually been shown to be the best method to control weeds in natural areas.  The problem with pulling weeds is the resulting soil disturbance.  The disturbance of the soil causes more damage than the judicious use of herbicide.  The result of pulling weeds and disturbing the soil is often more weeds.

My suggestion of using the razor blade was only intended to help you remove the taproot weeds that are growing in your rosette and bun plants.  It is often difficult to apply herbicide to weeds within the rosette or bun without getting any on your treasured garden plant.  Pulling weeds growing within a plant almost invariably results in also pulling apart the garden plant.  I have found that a slice with a razor blade 3/4 of an inch or more below the crown will prevent dandelions and other taproot weeds from returning.

Regarding my Antirrhinum majas, you are correct that they are introduced.  I believe they originally came from Spain.  They can temporarily spread to ground were competing vegetation has been removed.  However, they do not persist.  According to the USDA website they are not listed as invasive by any State.

Thanks for the comments.

James  

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I have found that a slice with a razor blade 3/4 of an inch or more below the crown will prevent dandelions and other taproot weeds from returning.

That method will not work for such plants here  in the UK, James...... unless the pest is only a very small specimen..... even slicing their taproot at a depth of three to four inches is not sufficient to deter a long rooted troublemaker.

Maggi Y

I have no need for pesticides or herbicides in my yard either.  All weeding is done by hand (even the lawn back when we had one).  I certainly don't have any fallow areas in my yard where it would even be possible to wage chemical warfare.

I agree with Mark and Maggi on dandelions - no point dealing with the same regenerated weed over and over - get the root out and be done.  My trusty dandelion weeder is my most-used gardening tool, for all weeding.  Well, okay, I admit to resorting to tweezers for "microweeding" the rock gardens.  Fast? "Easy"? Perhaps not.  Effective, precise and satisfying... very.  ;)  By the way, "weeding" to me is removing excess self-seeded garden perennials; the number of actual weeds I deal with is a tiny proportion.

Weed fabric/landscape fabric is death on plants here; the low rainfall levels guarantee that the soil beneath it is dry as dust... It's main usage in these parts in those sad neglected plantings at commercial buildings, the ones where even the hardiest "low-maintenance" shrubs languish half-dead.  I have to say though that in my experience, landscape fabric is pretty darn effective for killing lawn (and frankly that's all I'd recommend it for).  The best "prevention" for weeds is to get out and weed when weeds pop up... granted that one has to have the time to do this, and I know we all wish we had.

James wrote:

I must disagree with you about the use of herbicides always being "not environmentally sound." 

My goodness, what a carefully hedged statement! 
Believe it or not, James, it is probably accurate to say that you are preaching to the converted when you post here about the preservation of wildlands... however, bludgeoning readers over the head about which pew they should they be sitting in, gets to the point where your message becomes diminished.  Rest assured that the audience here is not unaware of the issues.  A great many members of this audience have a vast amount of knowledge and experience, which is also worth keeping in mind. 

Anyway, enough about weeds... back to interesting plants instead!

"A phylum cabinet"  :D :D

"I agree with Mark and Maggi on dandelions - no point dealing with the same regenerated weed over and over - get the root out and be done."

I did some research.  I discovered my statement about being able to control dandelions by cutting them below the crown was incorrect.  Apparently, I have been doing it wrong.

http://bygl.osu.edu/bimages/2011/05/cimage2011_05n3370.JPG

"Weed fabric/landscape fabric is death on plants here; the low rainfall levels guarantee that the soil beneath it is dry as dust... It's main usage in these parts in those sad neglected plantings at commercial buildings, the ones where even the hardiest "low-maintenance" shrubs languish half-dead."

I have successfully used weed fabric for a number of years.  Precipitation and air readily move through the fabric.  In contrast, the roots of weeds cannot penetrate through the fabric.  This prevents the weed from accessing soil moisture.  Likewise, weeds that germinate under the fabric are prevented from reaching light.  When I lift up the mulch and weed fabric there is always more moisture present than at the surface of adjacent top soil.  The result of using weed fabric in arid climates should be a further conservation of moisture by preventing weeds from taking valuable soil moisture away from garden plants.

There are a number of reasons even the hardiest "low-maintenance' shrubs languish half dead around commercial buildings.  The biggest problem is they usually plant them in subsoil instead of top soil.  Secondly, these shrubs are almost invariably planted near a concrete foundation or curb which creates alkaline soil conditions.  Only certain species like Dasiphora fruticosa can grow successfully in these conditions.  Finally, salt is often an issue.

I apologize to Mark for automatically regurgitating my blurb about the benefits of using herbicides in natural areas.  I have become rather defensive over the years about this issue.  There are many people who are against the use of herbicides in any situation.  This has created many problems for those trying to manage natural areas.

I personally do use herbicides in my garden.  I will use herbicide for weeds that cannot be removed by pulling.  I have found this necessary since certain species repeatedly come back from root sprouts.  I also use herbicide in the instances where the use is significantly easier than hand pulling.  I personally would prefer to leave the dandelions in my lawn.  However, I have bowed to the pressures from my neighbors on this issue.

Sincerely,

James

All methods of weed control have their place in my garden.

Rhizominous perennials are judiciously bushed with a glyphosate product. Annuals and tap rooted perennials are pulled.

The best advice I ever got was to bag and dispose of all weeded material. The thought behind this is to get rid of any seed and diseases  (rusts etc.)that may be present.

I feel that about five years of intensive control will eventually deplete the seed bank and make the next thirty or forty years more manageable. Of course, It always helps if the neighbors keep their little slice of heaven weed free too. :rolleyes:

As far as weeds in a cushion go, it depends a lot on what the cushion is. On user friendly cushions I pull the leaves off the weed, yes it will develop more, but I keep pulling them off and eventually they starve to death(a slow and fitting demise). :( In A cactus patch it's literally a sticky situation, so I use a sharp Knife taped to a long handle and cut the top growth off again and again, with starvation as the end result. :) I know this method requires vigilance and repetition, but it has worked for thirty plus years.  I've been set in my ways at least, the last twenty five. There is little hope of changing now.  ;)

I've never found any chemicals that will do anything at all to the weeds in my garden. The weeds just keep coming back.
I bought one of these http://www.shop.waycooltools.com/WEED-DRAGON-100000-BTU-Deluxe-Vapor-Torch-Kit-VT-2-23C.htm but haven't used it yet.
Having grown up in Southern California in the 1950s, I'm partial to most things Japanese, and especially as they relate to gardening.
When I discovered Hida Tool in Berkeley my heart sang. All but the last of the items pictured can be purchased there for very little.
First, the ultimate weeding tools for cushions and troughs.
Second, the kana and nejiri, for general weeding.
Third, the ultimate weeder. Also functions as Rodent Threatener. (Though they know I won't hurt them.)

Bob

Bob
A little extreme on the last one!! ;) I can see were it might scare them to death!! ;D

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A little extreme on the last one!! 

Seemed like a logical sequence to me......
Though, I don't kill creatures that visit my garden. This drove my wife crazy; she would grab a bottle of Dr. Bronner's and go out and drench whatever was being eaten.
Now I adopt a laissez-manger attitude towards everything. (Easy to say in a slugless garden, huh.)

Bob

Hear! Hear! For sluglessness.  8)

Weed Pullers,

    Today I pulled dandelions.  I was surprised to see that I had pulled most of them before.  Now that I was looking for resprouting, it was quite obvious.  I had been pulling the same dandelions over and over again.
    I had been warned by Lori and Maggi that I needed to get most, if not all, of the root removed.  I used my fishtail weeder, but was only able to get about three inches of root removed despite my best effort.  I looked on line for different tools and found most of them would not be much of an improvement.  The only tool that looked really promising was the Shark Spade.

 http://www.sharkspade.dk/

    However, this tool costs over $80 to get in the U.S.  If you guys have any better ideas I am open to them.  

Thanks,

James

Dandelions are easier to pull in spring and by waning moon! Use an old curved chisel.

Well, the guy has one thing right: the trick is to loosen the soil around the root.  I use a long flat head screwdriver.  Customers at Home Depot really like the commercially sold Weed Hound,especially because you don't have to bend over.    :rolleyes:

My daughter liked the 'rodent threatener'; she is mad keen on all things Japanese!

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she is mad keen on all things Japanese! 

Sushi, too? Yum.
I love using the nejiri weeder. The blade can be kept very sharp. Apparently, several centuries ago these things were popular with ninja, since, if caught, they could rightly claim that the nejiri and kana were simply gardening tools.

Believe it or not, the use of herbicides and pesticides in the garden is one of (actually many) things on which I have no opinion.

I was surprised to read in an old AGS bulletin that "liquid pesticides should be flushed down the WC". I imagine attitudes have changed since then.

Bob

Bob,

    Pesticides are one thing I do not use in my garden.  I main reason I garden is because of all the interesting insects my plants attract.

James

Here is an even better example.  I saw this Grape Vine Beetle while picking Japanese Beetles off a Virginia Creeper.  I flick the Japanese Beetles into a cup of soap water to get rid of them.  This Grape Vine Beetle was an exciting find for me.  If I had just sprayed to kill the Japanese Beetles I would have killed this cool Grape Vine Beetle also.  This thing is huge.  It was 1 1/4 inches.

James

Ha ha, the rodent threatener - my son has a set of three katana, he'd probably take after me if I snuck one out - he has collected some knives and "swords" and I know he keeps them well polished, etc. He has given me an old machete though, it works like a charm at whipping off a lot of unwanted vegetation, eg. thistles ( thistles are another story altogether )
For dandelions, yup, loosen them up and pull - I do get quite a feeling of satisfaction when I feel it coming up with the whole root.  I have a very, very  large farmyard though, and so much area, that there are countless dandelions that need not have any fear of me coming round.  If  I had 48 hours in a day, I might have a chance of getting them all!

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If  I had 48 hours in a day, I might have a chance of getting them all!   

That'd make for quite a boring day.

You could pretend that you were growing them for consumption. Though, I bought some pissenlits for a stir fry once, and, well, sorry, not for me.

Bob

Incidentally, I am very fond of my machete. Genuine Brazilian one. My late spouse was adamantly against me buying one, claiming that no one who grew androsaces could possibly find a use for a machete, but when she saw how easily it cuts small branches off the larger branches that are constantly being broken off the trees and shrubs here, she changed her mind.
Very soft steel, but still effective.
Good rodent threatener, too.

Bob