Clematis

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Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

What I grew as C. pierotii has survived (with leaves dusted with pollen)... although, assuming it is what it was claimed to be, apparently the preferred name is C. brevicaudata:

http://www.efloras.org/florataxon.aspx?flora_id=2&taxon_id=200007591

If it survives through time, it will have to fight for dominance of the wayfaring tree it's under with a 'Markham's Pink', which has an advantage of several years growing time.

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

Hoy
Hoy's picture
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-12-15

I would choose the Clematis for the Dasiphora, Lori!
Although seedlings of alpina and other clematises regularly pop up they seldom grow to flowering age - nice breakfast stuff for slugs and snails.
The brevicaudata leaves didn't look much like the leaves of mature plants. Sure the name is right? (I don't know the species, I looked it up!)

Trond
Rogaland, Norway - with cool, often rainy summers  (29C max) and mild, often rainy winters (180 cm/year)!

Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

Hoy wrote:

I would choose the Clematis for the Dasiphora, Lori!

There are so many Clematis alpina seedlings around here that I don't have to pick one over the other!  I have about a dozen potted up right now to give away!

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

A couple more...
Clematis alpina 'Willy' (with a seedling ex. Pamela Jackman', and by itself) and Clematis 'Markham's Pink' in a wayfaring tree (Viburnum lentago):
   

Here is more of the variation among 'Pamela Jackman' seedlings (demonstrating why only clones, not seeds, can be guaranteed to represent the cultivar):
 

And more variation yet among these self-sown Clematis alpina...
 

Hoy wrote:

The brevicaudata leaves didn't look much like the leaves of mature plants. Sure the name is right? (I don't know the species, I looked it up!)

No, I'm not sure at all - I thought perhaps the differences could be due to immature leaves on my plant (which has just emerged/leafed out), but I don't know.

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

RickR wrote:

When I checked my label (and my 2009 records), this second species was really C. ochotensis.  I am a staunch advocate of meticulous record keeping, and this is why!

Rick, despite what seems like an authentic provenance, I'm wondering if that is really C. ochotensis... ?  The leaves look more like C. alpina... 
I realize that C. ochotensis has been classified as a ssp. of alpina but it seems that the photos of it show 3 more-or-less entire leaves, rather than highly divided ones... ? 

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

RickR
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-09-21

I see what you mean, Lori.  Though I did not find a written description of the foliage, I did find this one pic, out of the soooo many on the web, taken at the University of Helsinki botanic garden: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Clematis_ochotensis_Ohotank%C3%A4...

Seed came from the 2008-09 NARGS seed ex #4170 and I have the donor number (121), but that year was the first year I did not get a hard copy of the seed list.  I saved the seed list on my pc, but apparently neglected to keep a copy of the donor list.  And the NARGS website archives does not keep donor lists.  (Why is that?)  So I don't know who 121 is.

At any rate, according to the description given by the donor, the flower is supposed to be "black".  My plant is too young to flower yet, and I suppose if the flower is "black" it could be ochotensis?  (Are there "black" C. alpina?)  Or maybe the flower color was the only  identifying characteristic used when the seed was collected, and therefore not correctly identified?  I don't know.  And I know far less than you would regarding this.

Rick Rodich    zone 4a.    Annual precipitation ~24 inches
near Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

RickR wrote:

And I know far less than you would regarding this.

Errr, no, not at all.  I don't know much about clematis -  I was looking up this species the other night for other reasons, and did not see many examples with strongly-divided foliage like your plant, so it is just a guess on my part.  The Wiki entry for this species does look more-or-less like yours, though. 

There does seem to be some dark cultivars of C. alpina and C. macropetala but I don't know about "black". 

Hmm, as I was looking on one of my garden maps for something else, I came across C. ochotensis... I was given a seedling, if I recall correctly.  I'll have to see if it survived and what it looks like...

Any clematis experts out there?

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

Hoy
Hoy's picture
Title: Member
Joined: 2009-12-15

I am no expert at all but according to C. Grey-Wilson in his book "Clematis the genus" ochotensis "leaves are very similar to alpina but often a more yellow-green". He continues "-with broader sepals 12-24mm as opposed to 10-15mm (in alpina). In addition the staminodes are quite different: in ochotensis they are spatula-shaped up to 20mm long but not more than 3mm wide, whereas in alpina they are pronouncedly spoonshaped not more than 15mm long but about 6mm wide at the widest. The flower colour ranges from bright indigo blue to violet-blue or purple (rarely white) . . "

Trond
Rogaland, Norway - with cool, often rainy summers  (29C max) and mild, often rainy winters (180 cm/year)!

Lori S.
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-10-27

Well, that is excellent news!  Thanks, Trond.  Sorry to cause your clematis a brief identity crisis, Rick!

Lori
Calgary, Alberta, Canada - Zone 3
-30 C to +30 C (rarely!); elevation ~1130m; annual precipitation ~40 cm

RickR
Title: Moderator
Joined: 2009-09-21

I missed the last replies on this thread until now...

Thanks Trond for the C. ochotensis description.  It will come in handy when mine blooms.  I have copied it for later use, and I'm becoming more excited as to the prospects!

Rick Rodich    zone 4a.    Annual precipitation ~24 inches
near Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA

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